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Comments on: Yaron Sinai Says Stop Thinking, Stupid Tester https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199 Software Testing for Serious People Tue, 09 Apr 2019 23:49:14 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.0.3 By: Matthew Heusser https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1128 Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:16:17 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1128 Not too long ago I had to give a demo of a GUI-Driving “test automation tool” at a conference as part of my speech; I wanted to show how brittle the GUI was and what problems you’d encounter. To do this, I needed to build up a non-trivial test suite with it, see how long it took me to write, what the challenges were, etc.

My wife, who has a wonderful education in liberal arts (BA in philosophy from an ivy-level college) walked by an saw the icons flashing and the screen running, and said “that’s awesome.”

I suspect that explains the success of some large percentage of GUI-driving tool sales: To people inexperienced with testing, having stuff fly by the screen is, in fact, “driving it”, is the same thing as testing. And it’s cool, right?

I had an HOUR to explain the real challenges with this at ST&P Conf. I had some success.

Sadly, Not everybody goes to ST&PConf. (But you can still read my column for free, every month, downloadable as a PDF from http://www.stpmag.com ! 🙂

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By: kristin https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1127 Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:18:44 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1127 aha!…I’ve finally found the source of dribble from my 3rd-from-last manager…I almost quit because he was making us fill out this spreadsheet, and demanding that for any particular module, he expected 700-1000 test cases! And, astonishing, he allowed, no he demanded the assignment of a test step as a case!! Inflating the count of cases, of course, and boosting his productivity graph line. I say almost walked, because he jumped to a new job (at a presumably higher salary), and our next manager took 3 weeks before he jumped too…

On that project, I pushed hard for the abandonment of the useless 6000+ test cases in that spreadsheet, and was successful in promoting a functional and system approach to reducing the number of cases while enhancing the coverage and effectiveness of the testing, and getting pretty ok with our process, and efficency.

Now, a year after that, I am out of a job as well…

I’m almost giving up, but then I get angry…and anger is a really good souce of energy, if it is recognized as such…just pure energy, and take control of the direction the energy pushes in, and I feel very pushy!

[James’ Reply: I’m lucky never to have worked for a manager like that.

I’m glad that you are awake and kicking back. Thank you.]

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By: Peter Nairn https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1126 Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:51:34 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1126 About 18 months ago I started working for a large multi-national software consultancy (whom I will not name!) who actively promoted this idea to their clients, along with the fallacy that automation will make testers even more productive and reduce testing time.

I wish I had known this before I joined them. I walked within 3 months.

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By: Sandeep Maher https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1125 Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:26:18 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1125 Welcome to the graveyard of testing. Of Autocracy! Where thinking is banned. Testers are like dead bodies running to the finish line or made to and without their ticking brains which they have to leave behind lest they impact the orderliness of test case based testing. What crap!

Even if test cases were written by thinking brilliant people, will they ever be complete – for God’s sake! This is like becoming an ape from a man as Ben rightly suggests. Kill the passion, kills the brain and a man (read the tester who wants to reveal… please… only reveal) becomes a rat waiting for directions to take this or that direction dependent on someone else’s instructions. How subjugating! How stifling!

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By: Ben Kelly https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1124 Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:48:12 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1124 G’day Carsten.
I was more lamenting the fact that our addiction to the quick fix has allowed us to circumvent evolution (to extend your metaphor).

In nature, if you choose the wrong evolutionary path, you die. We don’t do that much anymore.
Ordering a big-mac may seem to some like a good short-term solution for hunger. Do that every day though, and you end up fatter and slower than the rest of the herd. The penalty for that is far less immediate than say being a fat slow guy would have been 40,000 years ago.

Same in software testing, it seems. Unfortunately, when a stupid/ignorant/(etc) manager gets it wrong, you’re not allowed to kill them. Instead, you get to live with the pain of their evolutionary retardation. The quick fix is a credit card where the interest rate is a high percentage of inevitable pain. Luckily (for some), if you’re in management you can delegate the suffering.

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By: shrini Kulkarni https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1123 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:35:38 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1123 James,

I am not surprised and so will be many in India. Day in and out we see people (our managers) making such statements and pushing testing totally out of anything related to “thinking” or questioning.

I have seen many people keeping so much FAITH on test cases and some even can not think of testing without test cases at all.

On way I often counter these folks is by saying “if a tester were to simply follow STEPS and report what happened – then you want a tester? Any one would do?” If testing is about following steps – why bother testing at all as it looks very silly to pay so much to simply follow steps. I am sure there is a simple way out without using any human”

Shrini

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By: Oliver Smith https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1122 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:28:41 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1122 Interesting that Sinai was the mountain where Moses was given the ten commandments. Perhaps our Mr. Sinai is just playing on his namesake!?

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By: Carsten Feilberg https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1121 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:54:26 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1121 Ben – for your tangential rant: you can’t stop evolution.

Everyone has the opportunity to try and make up something useful. Mostly, it will be useful for themselves and if they’re real happy with it, they will market it (I guess that’s where all the ‘best practices’ comes from).
But in evolution there’s an element of survival. Probably not many testers will let these products survive, but they will still exist (~be created) and they will still arrive on the market at a steady rate – only to succumb. After all, most of all species on this planet have gone extinct – a lot of testing tools has gone already and more will go the same way.
Still, in niches, some of these tools will be useful and save the day for someone.

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By: Jon Bach https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1120 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:55:17 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1120 Just got this today… typical spam bait, but looking at the name they had addressed me in relation to the deceased was especially funny and relevant to this thread.

“Dear Jon Testing,

I am Barrister John Mensah,a solicitor at law.I am the personal attorney to ENGR.J.P.Testing,a national of your country, who is a Contractor and have spent most of his life in my country (Togo) Here in after shall be referred to as my client.On the 30TH of April 2000, my client,his wife and their only son were involved in a car accident along bagida express road.All occupants of the vehicle unfortunately lost their lives. Since then I have made several enquiries to your embassy to locate any of my clients extended relatives,this has also proved unsuccessful. ..”

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By: Ben Kelly https://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/5199#comment-1119 Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:51:39 +0000 https://www.satisfice.com/blog/?p=243#comment-1119 Just wondering how much Jeff Feinman got paid to write the ad.
I don’t read the SD Times, but if this is indicative of their standard fare, I’m not about to start. I note that there is a distinct lack of outraged replies. I suspect that their readership are the sort of people who are right now telling their chief quality monkey to go test drive the tool. It would appear not to be the sort of tester/test manager who finds the idea behind such a tool repugnant.

Time for a tangential rant.
The sad thing is that a company like this can be successful at all. I think it’s down to human nature and the tendency to value the easy short-term option over the more beneficial, but generally far less sexy longer term one. As long as the quick and easy, cheap solution is available, why make an effort? You don’t need a real gold nugget – it’s much easier to paint a turd gold and sell that instead. It’s why so many people are morbidly obese. It’s one reason why software quality sucks – one could go on and on, but until there is some sort of paradigm shift in understanding of the false economy that is the ‘easy option’, then the sort of change you want to see will remain limited to an enlightened (probably frustrated) few.

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