ISTQB Leaks
A former fellow of the ISTQB sent me some secret dirt about the ISTQB qualifications process.
(Editors Note: The ISTQB is the organization of cash-grubbing bullies that runs advertisements that say things like “join the elite”– meaning “pay us to give you a ridiculous and unnecessary exam that almost everyone passes so that dimwitted managers will think that you know how to test software.” If you are ISTQB certified, and you actually know how to test, then you know how silly the exam is.)
I don’t mind getting email. What bugs me here is that the guy, after telling me that the ISTQB is basically a bad organization run by nasty people, then sent me a follow-up letter about how he would sue me if I passed that information on to anyone else.
First he wants to cry on my shoulder, and then he threatens me!
Listen Bernard, don’t threaten me with penalties for telling the truth. The problem I have with you guys is that you lack courage and education. Please don’t expect me to have the same spinning moral compass as you do.
I will not publish verbatim what you sent me. That would violate your copyright. You own the copyright to your own email. But I have made no agreements with you about keeping information secret that you send unsolicited to my inbox on purpose and with full knowledge that I am opposed to the ISTQB and all that it represents. It was obviously intended as a leak. Perhaps instead of threatening me directly, you should tell Rex Black to have his lawyers send a demand letter asking for the return of the memo you leaked to me.
But here’s a better idea: you could have asked me nicely to do what you asked. Perhaps in Belgium they also have this saying “You can catch more flies with honey than with flamey emails.”
May 16th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
“exam that almost everyone passes”
I think this is true, because I know a person who failed the test by a very small margin.
He had not taken the preceding training, and never worked in testing or software development…
May 17th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Being new to the testing field (4 months working as a Test Analyst) I have already formed the opinion that the ISTQB Exams are pretty pointless, everyone I personally know that has sat the foundation exam holds this opinion. I of course sat the foundation exam 2 months ago and passed with flying colours (hardly difficult). I felt I had to gain this useless piece of paper as every single Employment ad for Testing in my local area I’ve seen mentions the ISTQB, while they don’t require it they all mention it would be advantageous to have, most employers won’t look at your C.V. any further if they don’t see it. I know this says a lot about most employers but the sad truth is that while the ISTQB exams are a waste of time and money, for someone starting out in the testing field that are almost a must have to be employable.
[James' Reply: I don't think you need a certification to be employable. I think you should study the craft and then the right people will hire you. I'm a high school dropout and I never had a trouble getting work.]
May 17th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
@ISTQB staff,
People running ISTQB must take a formal training from an expert and perform some good testing on their official portal at http://www.istqb.org/
How would you expect a wrong person to teach you right things?
Here are few things,
1. The page at the footer says: Last updated: 2009-03-30
Are these people making enough money that they do not have time to look at their own portal? Can’t they spend few dollars from ocean of dollars to redesign their portal at least to gain some credibility with respect to their portal however there is no credibility that is there in their exam.
2. There is an event advertizement 20-22 October 2009
TESTWAREZ 2009
Location: Krakow, Poland
>> This is year 2010. Are there no testing events to update? Or you do not know them as you are only seeing money by wasting time of people by giving them ISTQB certificate.
@Managers / organizations who are pushing the employees into ISTQB well,
ISTQB has become a business and managers want their sub-ordinates to take up the exam and they smile at their customers say, You see “We have ISTQB certified testers” <- LOL. You mean who have gone through memory test and not skill test? I wish managers learn about certifications like BBST etc. and educate others too on it.
NOTE: I am not against certifications, but against process of ISTQB which doesn’t facilitate learniing nor anything.
Thanks,
Santhosh Shivanand Tuppad
May 17th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
@Daniel,
If ISTQB certification is needed to get employed then I disagree. I am employed and I am not ISTQB certified. May be in your region there are some managers who are misguided. How about guiding them and talking to them about real stuff about these certifications. However, you might talk about BBST foundation and encourage your organization employees to take it.
Those people who ask you to be ISTQB certified in order to be hired then I think you must not work for them as you won’t have freedom to perform better under those kind of managers.
There are some managers who look for following skills in a tester to be hired,
- Bug Reporting
- Bug Advocacy
- Lateral Thinking
- Exploring new tools / utilities
There are many skills that a tester needs and ISTQB doesn’t teach anyone anything.
Some managers or management needs to be educated and you should take the initiative to do so which would bring a change in the community.
Thanks,
Santhosh Shivanand Tuppad
May 18th, 2010 at 9:41 am
I sat that ludicrous exam once because I couldn’t understand why certified testers didn’t know about testing. I generally disagreed with the instructor on the course. Frankly my grandmother could pass that exam and shed been dead five years!
I have subsequently sent back my certificate and on my CV clearly state that it is returned. I find this generally leads to interesting discussions in interviews and hasn’t ever prevented me from being offered employment. If anything I think employers like the fact that you are critically thinking about the industry not just swallowing mainstream mumbo jumbo.
I’d like to encourage more people in our industry to return the ISEB.
[James' Reply: Good man!]
May 19th, 2010 at 2:17 am
Thank You for bringing this to the world.
You show us a way to stand up to the hypocrites and the weak. I always believed that certifications were just useless.
People are just terribly misinformed or sometimes don’t even care. Otherwise how do you explain that so many know about certifications (ISTQB) and very few actually know/read about exploratory testing or rapid testing.
I freely admit of not practicing these approaches. But I do have a common sense and I will never follow something just because of bunch of idiots think certification is good for career blah blah.
You know ‘what is good for a career’? - Hard Work and an open mind to experiment.
Thanks again James for sharing this.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:13 am
@Oliver
Wow, what a way to do it! I would go one step further if I had not refused my own certificate and ask them to issue a certificate that you had renounced your certification!
BTW, interesting article from a guy whose lateral thinking could (???) put James to shame: http://understandinguncertainty.org/
Anyways, fight the good fight, don’t let them call you QA and get on with the job in front of you!
May 19th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
I find it’s a great way of filtering out potential employers. If they say, “must be certified,” then I know I needn’t bother applying because I wouldn’t want to work for them anyway!
Oliver: What a fantastic idea! I did the ISTQB certification when I was new and naive, and have never quite known how to acknowledge that I’ve done it, but don’t believe in it on my resume.
May 20th, 2010 at 10:20 am
@Aaron Hodder:
If you find an employeer who says you must be certified as a tester, I prompt you to join the company! Change their views! No company is too big or too small to change! Explain what Exploratory Test Approach is. Explain why certification does not fit in that picture. Explain that the intelligence is in the tester, not the test script.
May 20th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Hello everyone,
I really do not know whether ISTQB is fake or silly exam to pass, but as for my knowledge goes the topics designed for ISTQB - Foundation level or Advanced level basically deals with the foundations of software testing. It would be good to do more exploratory on those topics and learn by yourself, instead of relaying on an institute. Yes, most of the people do put ISTQB logo in their resumes, but I do not think that would help them to get a job. In the end its how you answered to the questions is what it matters. But some interviewers get a good impression whenever they look into this ISTQB certified testers. I have seen in many job portals where companies ask for an ISTQB certified tester.
My belief is that instead of looking into the score gained in ISTQB/ any other certifications it would be good to look into the depth of testing knowledge a person possess. Look into the topics titles from what so ever certifications and understanding those is one good activity.
Please share with me a challenging certification course that is worth trying for a software test engineer?
May 21st, 2010 at 5:18 am
If you want to follow the way I did it, just write a section on the CV entitled certifications and then put the certifications, the date you did them and put “(Returned)” after the certification.
Viva la revolution!!!
May 25th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I’m fairly new to Testing, and I AM ISTQB Certified. I wanted to give a slightly different view about the certification process. I had been working for about 3 months, and had a fairly good idea of what was expected of me. The test was simple and I easily passed without even studying… and I’m generally a poor test taker. To say that the test has any form of really verifying that you have a tester’s mind is, of course, absurd; however, to say that the test and class helped me see testing from another view point and solidify some ideas in my head? - Absolutely, it did.
[James' Reply: You are not yet qualified to know how this class has helped you or harmed you. I believe it has harmed you. Part of the harm is that your education is at least temporarily warped by the incoherent half-truths that you were obliged to swallow.
If you came to work for me I would begin your retraining process immediately.]
I came back with a lot more confidence about terminology/phraseology (which is a bit unclear in the field), and a better understanding of my role and how I could help ensure a quality project. That confidence gain, in and of itself, was of great benefit. Whether you take a course, read blogs, read books or just converse with others, ALL knowledge can be useful if applied in the right way, at the right time, and in the right situation.
[James' Reply: Your confidence is misplaced. You probably don't yet understand the terms that you think you understand (why do you think that you do? what testing process have you gone through to know that?). Good testing is deep. No parroting of terminology gets you there.]
[James' Further Note: Dan and I have had a nice email conversation. I'm encouraged that he's become a true student of testing. As he put it to me:
"All you’ve said makes sense to me, and I appreciate your candidness. I want, sincerely, to be a competent and complete tester. As I said, I only entered the field about 7 months ago, and so am trying to figure out the best way to achieve that goal. I hope to contact you in the near future on Skype to have that interactive session."]
May 26th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
I accept that ISTQB certification is ludicrous,useless, etc etc. But is any other academic degree an exception?.If a high school drop out tells about this i can understand.Because he has followed the same rules through out the life.But if all those Btech, MCA graduates are going to tell that certification is useless then i should ask them some questions.
1. Why did you do your Btech/MCA/ or any other PG courses?
2. How much did these help in your testing/programming skills?
Most of theses courses are teaching some basics about computer or related subjects.They do have some practical sessions but in most cases will be nothing related to what we do real time in our job.All of these courses collect heavy fees from the students also. If you are confident about your skills & sure that your skills alone will fetch you a nice secured job then why you need a graduation?
[James' Reply: I did drop out of high school. I wrote a book about self-education called Secrets of a Buccaneer-Scholar.
However, I'm not opposed to certification in principle. I'm opposed to stupid and abusive certification. I'm opposed to certification that harms our craft. If to become a doctor it were necessary to have a degree in Astrology, I would oppose that, for instance. If to become a doctor you were banned from studying Astrology, I would also oppose that.]
May 28th, 2010 at 1:24 am
[James' Reply: Hi Khati, I'm not going to publish your comment this time. I've already answered the points you are making and I'd rather not speak slower and louder so that you might begin to understand. You have to keep up to be in this debate. You have to apply yourself.
Perhaps you could go away, have a think, read something, and learn how to test. When you become a serious student of testing, I believe you will be as dissatisfied and indignant about the ISTQB as I am.]
May 28th, 2010 at 10:28 am
@Dan: I came back with a lot more confidence about terminology/phraseology (which is a bit unclear in the field)
Unless you came back with confidence that you cannot trust terminology/phraseology, but must question it;
and unless you came back confident that your organization’s terminology/phraseology doesn’t match the ISTQB’s and that that’s okay;
and unless you came back with an approach to deal with the uncertainty that you should be facing this early in your career (example: “You’re asking me if I’ve done boundary testing. I may have done what you would agree is boundary testing. Let’s check to make sure we agree.”);
then I agree with James.
—Michael B.
May 31st, 2010 at 11:15 pm
@Santosh Shivanand Tuppad
sorry to say u a known fact i have seen many trainings institutions give coaching freshers,experienced people need to have ISQTB certified to hier into MNCs not only indian companies but many more i have seen them.They hire people only if they are ISQTB certified they treat it as minimum Qualification as a tester.This is one of the cause i cannot get into a MNC .
[James' Reply: I don't think companies who restrict their hiring that way are taking testing seriously. No one who thinks ISTQB certification means that testers are qualified understands testing. So, don't worry too much if you aren't hired. Just keep learning and getting better.]
May 31st, 2010 at 11:51 pm
the worst thing is company do project resouce billing saying that we have ISQTB certified tester .So, they ask employees to do it. I too got hte same inform in start. I still not interested. Only to learn more for me not sake of others.
[James' Reply: If you learn earnestly on your own. If you make it a joy and a habit to study testing, then no one important will think twice that you are "uncertified".]
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:48 am
I also agree that the ISTQB certification is outdated and pretty useless…
[James' Reply: It's not just outdated, it's wrong. It's not just wrong, it was created for the wrong reasons, in the wrong way, by the wrong people, and has had a terribly wrong impact on the industry.]
In Belgium I think it’s sadly true that, if you want a job as a tester, you need to be ISTQB certified, even if it means nothing, and even if you’ve only just passed the exam.
[James' Reply: "Truths" like that mean nothing. For one thing, you don't know it's true. For another, in order for it to be true EVERY test manager in Belgium would have to be both stupid and gullible. Is every test manager in Belgium stupid and gullible? Are they children in Belgium, or adults who can think for themselves.
But if it were true, it's easy to change: one test manager simply learns how to test and thus learns how to recognize tester skill.]
F.e. when 2 testers apply for the same job, equal level of experience and knowledge, but one with ISTQB cert. and the other one without, I think they’ll always take the one that is ISTQB cert., because customers like having “certified” testers (they seem to think it’s a synonym to “skilled).
[James' Reply: No one has equal experience and knowledge. Each tester is a personal work of art. I am not treated as an object with X experience and X knowledge. I've created my own brand name and shifted the dynamics of hiring so that I am sought out by the right people for the right services that I want to provide. I've been doing this since the age of 16 (at first, by accident, but later on purpose).]
But I do believe that the testing craft needs certifications and exams, but they should be updated and more mature!
[James' Reply: It does not need certifications or exams. They are completely unnecessary. What the testing craft needs are competent hiring managers, instead of lazy and cynical ones. Why not call for that, instead?]
Because now testers only differentiate themselves from others by being certified (and of course by self-education and “spreading the word” through blogs, papers, classes, talks…).
[James' Reply: I don't understand your logic. "Certification", by your own admission, is not a way to differentiate yourself, since you are saying that everyone hired already has one. They say degrees and diplomas differentiate people, too. This also is not true. I don't have any of those things. To my knowledge, I have not suffered for that. I feature my ideas publicly, I help people who then enhance my reputation. I am known by name. You can be known, too. All it takes is true passion and personal investment in your own expertise. Certification is no shortcut.]
We don’t have any “grade” we can classify ourselves in. (f.e. you can be a “senior tester” with a company after 5 years, but what does it mean??)
[James' Reply: Study your craft and you will be able to say what it means.]
In a keynote last year, Isabel Evans explained the difference in maturity between the testing profession and horticulture.
It sounded a bit odd at first, but she did have a very good point!
Testing changes and matures continuously, but there is no “centralized testing craft repository” or something to go to when wanting to learn (from others).
[James' Reply: Before we have a centralized repository, we need a community. In horticulture, the development of community took many, many decades, and it evolved and fractured over time. (See: The Science of Describing) Our craft is also in the process of fracturing. The part I respect (and in which I am respected) pursues testing from a holistic scientific and humanistic point of view. We think of ourselves as the smart kids-- because we devour books on a wide variety of scientific and historical subjects (such as the Science of Describing, which I read as part of my normal, continuous study into the nature of testing skill). We have high expectations for ourselves, and we cultivate colleagues who will challenge us in literate and thoughtful ways.
If you want to help with this, then publish your ideas and sources.]
So we’ll need to move more towards testing as an “Established profession” (such as law or medicine), also to increase our credibility…
[James' Reply: The best way to move toward that is to stop looking for ridiculous shortcuts. Look to your own education, and encourage those around you to learn, too. The profession will evolve as a direct consequence.]
June 14th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
@Michael and everyone else. You’re right about it all. James and I had a nice email discussion. I’m ready to begin my journey!
June 21st, 2010 at 10:38 am
About the certification I want to say first that I went to the process of ISTQB certification but I failed(good or bad you decide). I didn’t do the training and I saw some samples of questions, but I didn’t spent too much time on it because I wanted to go to Viena with my own knowledge about testing. I admit that if you learn those questions in a couple of days you can pass it easily and no testing experience is needed. So I have failed the exam on one question, I am not sure here if the examination was tricky because I was “invited” to give another one with new payment.
So going through the process and spending some money for it I think gives me the right to give some opinions. I made a comparison between this type of certification institutes and mafia here http://www.testalways.com/2010/06/21/istqbother-similar-certifications-and-mafia/.
Sebi
July 22nd, 2010 at 12:13 am
I have 4yrs+ of testing experience and I have been employed all the time. I just attended the software testing conference at KL, Malaysia. I was thinking to find out more information about the ISTQB certification and was thinking to even take it. But now I read this. What would you recommend me, for someone like me who wish to upgrade myself in terms of choosing testing techniques, etc? Please advise. Thanks.
[James' Reply: I recommend that you study testing continually throughout your career. That's what I do. You might read my book Lessons Learned in Software Testing for specifics, or take the online BBST course through the Association for Software Testing, or read my other book, Secrets of a Buccaneer-Scholar, which is all about technical self-education. Go to conferences. Get involved in testing forums. Read Introduction to General Systems Thinking. Read sapient tester blogs.]
October 12th, 2010 at 2:26 am
I have a decade of exp in testing and recently i attempted ISTQB exams (foundation and advanced analyst and test mngr level).
The exams are realistic and helped me realize my strengths are weaknesses.
[James' Reply: The exams I've seen are a travesty. Not realistic at all. The syllabus is unacceptable.
So, I guess that means there's controversy about it. Meanwhile, not a single tester I respect feels respect for the ISTQB.]
It helped in closing gaps and raised the professional awareness level. Of course people who don’t want to take memory test can simply go unprepared for the exam.
[James' Reply: I'm wondering what you think professional testing is?]
the advanced level exam as per new syllabus certainly tests one’s real exp. Again one needs to take it without preperation and use just one’s exp to take call on situation presented there in. Certification is not just to convince outside world but also for the individual himself, to ascertain where he/she stands with respect to expectations of knowledge & competencies in the testing profession.
[James' Reply: The exams don't reflect the testing profession. They reflect the shallow ideas of a particular group of opportunists.]
No interview presents opportunity to exchange enough info to evaluate a person on all aspects of the prefession, there certification helps. A balanced skill set (with no critical gaps) in the profession you chose is what certification helps you realize.
[James' Reply: I think it's consumer fraud. And I instantly question the competence of anyone who supports that sort of thing.]
October 12th, 2010 at 2:29 am
to add to the above, can we discuss a better exam pattern which reflects the testing profession more realistically at the same being as generic to cater to the diverse situations we face in testing.
To design such tests one may have to come out of tester mentality and move into design outlook.
[James' Reply: We can't have an exam that reflects the testing profession. Because there is no testing profession, really. There are many testing communities, not one profession.]
November 10th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
What a breath of fresh air. County me as another person who is offended by pointless certifications.
All the ISTQB shows is that your memorization skills are good.
I have been testing for 9 years now and am looking for work and I am being asked if I have ISTQB certification. How absurd! I have 9 years of real world experience at top companies from hands on tester to test manager and they are going to overlook me for someone who can spout canned answers to ISTQB questions!
My last round of hiring at my previous job was sad. The candidates were pitiful. They had advanced computer degrees from other countries and they sounded like they were reading from the ISTQB syllabus. I would ask for a specific scenario and they couldn’t answer me.
I hope I don’t have to break down and shell out the dollars for this pointless exam just to get an interview.
Grumpy and cynical as usual
Grumpy Old Tester
March 8th, 2011 at 11:12 pm
You are marvelous. I am college dropout too but now i have become a tester with no experience in testing at all.
And testing doesnt require a experience in the same field because testing is all about exploring new thing try them if they work try again with different method keep trying untill there is a failure. and that failure is actually your winning point.
I am just 21 working from past 3.5 years, industry took me from tech support to tester manual. now i am intersted in it. the situation changes everything. i though of doing this ISTQB bcoz someone from my team did and though would be great. but now drop the idea.
FROM INDIA
December 10th, 2011 at 5:58 am
I have 3 years of exp in testing and just wrote the ISTQB exam today ..
why ? ?
Because my employer wanted me to do so .. Why ? because the clients are better off with a ISTQB certified one…
[James' Reply: Why? Because you have no spine. But you are still young. Maybe you will grow one.]
basically i agree with what Nish said and he did talk sense unlike most of the people who commented here..
Everyone knows experience is what it matters and Self learning as James said is perhaps the next best thing that we should crave for.
It is not required to be ISTQB certified for getting a job .. But there are companies that demand a ISTQB certification and the list includes some big names. some one said they would not even bother applying to such companies. well, i wish i had that mentality .
[James' Reply: It's not that you shouldn't bother to apply. You should apply and just ignore that "requirement." Say that you take your professionalism seriously and you have an ethical objection to spouting bullshit.]
. infact i never attended any training for this course . and yes i have to agree to james finally, that there’s hell lot of difference between what you study for certification and what you do in your cubicle. Certifications are not necessary but an useful tag to flaunt during interview given that you do have a good knowledge and experience.
so i had no choice
for me, Until the comapny pays the money for certification i dont mind doing it
I dont know if i am going to put it in my resume .. but i have to do it in my company profile as it is a learning and development goal for me
[James' Reply: You have a choice, and you've made it. Other people in your position have made a different choice.]