Interview on Video
I gave an interview at the STAR West 2008 conference about agile testing. They’ve just put it online. Here it is! Once again I give answers that are too long. I’ll never make it as soundbite artist.
I gave an interview at the STAR West 2008 conference about agile testing. They’ve just put it online. Here it is! Once again I give answers that are too long. I’ll never make it as soundbite artist.
December 24th, 2008 at 5:22 am
Good one …I wish it could have a longer video. I like the title “James Bach Software Testing Naturalist” … like Darwin? Can you explain the title “naturalist” ….
Shrini
[James' Reply: A naturalist is someone who studies nature. To be a good context-driven tester, you must know the nature of testing, and the natural environment in which it transpires. Of course, to study the nature of testing is to study Homo Examenisis himself-- the tester. By calling myself a naturalist, I am also referring to the approach to science called naturalistic inquiry (see the work of Egon Guba).]
December 24th, 2008 at 5:47 am
I loved the view you gave on Agile vs. agile and on pressing people onto particular practices, that they do not necessarily follow. From my point of view this is the essence of the Agile Manifesto, that is too often misunderstood.
December 24th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Just make sure to add pauses!
This is fantastic, thanks.
December 24th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Again … Key point made in the talk about “Agile (TM)” is spot on. While “Agile (TM)” proponents claim to follow “(a)Agile manifesto” and hence believe and practice “people over process” yet teach, propagate and mandate the exactly the opposite ( ceremony oriented practices and externally borrowed practices - like TDD, Stand-up meetings, 100% automated unit tests and so on)
I would say “Agilists” are on the verge of declaring their practices as “best practices” (I have not heard of any using the term to describe their practice). Eventually when they use that term (I am sure they would … soon), that would be a logical end and demise of “agile manifesto” and principles there in.
Shrini
December 24th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
There are plenty of soundbites; the text associated with the clip contains a particularly good one! You might never make it as a three-sentence or one-sentence soundbite artist like Barney Frank, but many of us think that’s a feature, not a bug.
Slogans usually squeeze a lot of truth out of view.
December 27th, 2008 at 8:00 am
That clip will probably get some people steamed up again.
Most of what you said does sound right to me.
I went to a ScrumMaster course two weeks ago (is that Agile or agile?) and came away with a lot more than just Scrum. What intrigued me was the whole concept of acountability and the commitment of the team. It finally clicked, that this is exactly what processes and monster-documents-from-hell destroy (see the whole Waterfall process mess). They take away the accountability and the sense of belonging to a piece of work.
One thing I started criticising early on in my IT-work-life was the missing connection to the product you produce (without realising what grave consequences that has at the time). IT is virtual and it’s not like the guy on the belt at Ford, that can say “see those 200 Fords out there? There is MY work in those”. How can you take pride in something you can’t touch? Yes, you can be proud of a piece of software but deep down there’s a longing to produce something that is tangible and/or explainable (have you ever tried explaining what you do to your grandmother? Now think about the guy from Ford….*sigh*). A developer might have a chance at saying I CODED this but what’s the tester supposed to say? “I tested this” (?!). That’s hollow.
What do we testers produce? We don’t produce quality (that’s developers)…we don’t produce defects (that’s developers too)…what do we do? The only answer is finding/not-finding bugs and thereby mittigating risk. How surreal is that? How can you take pride in that? How can you start feeling accountable? How do you get emotionally committed to something that does not “exist”?
Honestly…I think you will not find pride for a product in your run-of-the-mill software project (esp. bespoke software/legacy stuff). Go and ask your team if they have pride in their product. You’ll probably get some blank stares. There’s no concept of pride in your product. Maybe pride in your job but that’s really more a figure of speech only.
Scrum and agile have the gift of trying to close that gap. There is more communication and the frequent demos and presentations to “people who matter”. The “cloud of electrons” we deal with gets a little more real and believable. I think that aspect of Scrum/agile is probably not stressed enough. In my opinion it helps keep quality up because peple take that pride in what they do. They will also fight for their beliefs because they have pride (instead of knuckling under some project manager/customer/line manager/deadline/ROI/…).
Oops, seems I’ve gotten a little off topic here. Anyway that’s what’s going through my mind at the moment and your video has sparked that yet again. I still haven’t reached a conclusion on these thoughts and maybe someone with more ideas on this can give me some added input/opinion.
@James: It was a good video and you have a screen presence so I hope that wasn’t the last we’ve seen.
[James' Response: Testers penetrate illusion. Testers light the way. It may not be very tangible, but it's not necessarily hard to explain.]
December 29th, 2008 at 1:35 am
I would like to react to Oliver’s reply.
Oliver: what do we do? The only answer is finding/not-finding bugs and thereby mittigating risk.
I don’t think that “finding bugs” is the only thing that I do as a tester. I also consider myself to be a diplomat.
As a tester I try to learn as much as I can about the context that other team members have to work in.
I want to know if programmers are evaluated based on the number of bugs reported. If that is the case I try to find an alternative way to report bugs. This eliminates friction between the programmer and the tester.
I also talk and listen to the team that creates the customer documentation. I want to know how late in the game they get the information to create the customer documentation. I engage in
I talk and listen to the operations people who have to support the infrastructure that runs a system.
I try to learn as much about the system as I can. I want to know enough about it so I would be able to represent the system/product in front of a customer.
I talk and listen to representatives (if not all) of every stakeholder class that is involved in project. By doing this I have changed the mindset about testing of many people that I worked with. Where initially they consider the tester as a person to avoid, after a while the tester received a lot of respect and even got asked for an opinion (imagine that …).
I don’t have a checklist that tells me who to talk to and what to ask. These things change per individual and per project. I don’t know (and actually I don’t really care) if I am following Scrum, Agile or any other prescribed method. I just feel there are certain things that I need to know as a tester. I learn from every experience and try to apply it the next time.
I feel a lot of pride about the services that I provide as a tester.
December 29th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Great stuff James. People over tools is really important. (I chucked in my own 2c worth here some months ago: http://www.agilekiwi.com/individuals_and_interactions.htm )
December 30th, 2008 at 8:27 am
@Erwin:
Oh, of course I do all the things you mention and I do take pride in that. But my point is that that taking pride is so virtual and as much as we can acept this mentally there is a part of us that needs something more tangible. Say for example you’re a carpenter and have built a table. Yes, you interact with the customer and other companies and you might even have staff that you lead. What makes you feel good at the end of the day is standing infront of that table and touching it. Is that the same pride as the one we have about our consulting job? For me it isn’t. And that seems to be something I’m missing.
Don’t get me wrong, I like testing and I didn’t get the wrong job or the scuch. I’m just interested if outer people out there see this as an issue or not.
December 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
>>>But my point is that that taking pride is so virtual and as much as we can acept this mentally there is a part of us that needs something more tangible.
Oliver, I think that part is what makes software testing more unique and interesting. Evaluating something that virtual, something that you can touch and see - sets up a unique challenge about software testing that attracts me towards it.
As James asks “Can you test some thing that does not exist (in a form that you can see, feel, listen, smell etc?)” or “Can you testing idea that is in some one’s mind (or your own mind)” … I think it is possible… so that is why software testing is interesting it lets you to go on an imagination tour, ride your feelings and cognitive elements and explore the world.
>>>I’m just interested if outer people out there see this as an issue or not.
I think it is other way round for me … testing something that I can touch and feel is (relatively) less interesting than testing something that does not exist in physical form.
I am sure we can test UFO’s and celestial bodies from other galaxies ….
Shrini
January 1st, 2009 at 10:19 pm
If there is a part of your mind that needs something tangible, why don’t you create it?
You can start your own blog, you can create training material, you can write a book, …, you could do so many things. That’s why I was telling you that being a tester is more than finding bugs. Be creative, and try to find something tangible that you could produce, if that is what you need.
I don’t consider testing to be just a job (even though I got paid for being a tester for a long time).
To me it’s more a way of living. I question many things, I have been teaching my kids from a very young age to question everything (they are 7 and 10 now). I play lateral thinking puzzles with my kids, and I play many other games with them to stimulate their creative thinking skills …
A couple of weeks ago my daughter (10) completed one of the ‘government’s standard tests’. She failed one of the questions, but rather than to accept the results (calculated by a computer) she challenged the teacher to explain why her answer was wrong. The teacher had to admit that the computer results were wrong.
Even though the school could not change her evaluation, she did pass my test just by the fact that she challenged her teacher. Those are the things that make me proud.
I feel like I am getting of track now …